Prof Byron Klaus, the former president of the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary (AGTS), was the organiser of the Global Pentecostal Summit held at City Harvest Church in November 2023, together with Prof Doug Petersen. Prof Byron teaches Pentecostal Foundations at CHC’s School of Theology. He most recently spoke at the church on the Father’s Day weekend.
A recipient of the Distinguished Educator Award from the Alliance for Assemblies of God Higher Education in 2009, and the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Society for Pentecostal Studies in 2016, Prof Byron was on the faculty and administration at Vanguard University of Southern California for two decades. He also served as vice-president for Latin America Child Care, a child development ministry serving over 80,000 children in 21 nations in Latin America and the Caribbean.
In this interview with City News, Prof Byron shares his passion for Pentecostal Foundations and his concerns for the next generation as they enter into an era previous generations have never imagined.
CITY NEWS: At the age of 74, do you have a dream project yet unfulfilled, something you feel compelled to create or contribute to in this season of your life?
PROF BYRON KLAUS: I am living that dream right here. I have had lots of things that I’ve done, and lots of things that I have appreciated. But as I look towards the last chapter of this season of my ministry, I want to be able to build foundations under something that will be sustained beyond my lifetime. So even when I’m gone, something will be thriving, that I had a role in putting together the initial foundations for.
We hear you once taught for three straight hours on Zoom without a break! What drives your energy when it comes to Pentecostal Foundations?
What drives me is that I really believe in what I’m talking about. I’ve been around for a long time, and I have plenty of friends in other traditions. I value other Christian traditions because they enrich me, but I am—unashamedly—a Pentecostal. When asked, I identify as that. I believe that God is doing extraordinary things in the world. That’s not just my observation, it’s the observation of people whose job it is to make that observation, both Christian and secular.
If we look at the 21st century and at the growth of Christianity, you have sociologists and missiologists both saying that the vibrancy of Christianity is in the Global South, and the vibrancy of that version of Christianity is decidedly Pentecostal charismatic. So if that is the case, in order to sustain that tradition, it is imperative that we need to have an historical understanding of where we’ve come from, and a biblical foundation for why we believe and act the way we do.
All I want to do is help people who are in the middle of that vibrancy, like here in Asia, to be able to humbly but confidently speak of what they believe. I want to take my journey—which has had many challenges, opposition, and in many cases, a lot of people looking down at me for being Pentecostal—to make sure that Pentecostals here in this region, move ahead with confidence, and with substance.
When you know your historical background and your biblical foundations, from there, you have to move into the next chapter. If you have these foundations, you’ve got to navigate your own spiritual journey in a place and time that I will never be able to be in. But hopefully these timeless truths will help you as you navigate that season for yourself.
The Bible is silent on a number of life’s issues. Is there a burning question you haven’t found an answer to? How should a believer resolve such a circumstance?
I think that there are issues emerging today for which, certainly on the surface, the Bible doesn’t have answers to. Artificial intelligence is one such issue, and the implications are how do we define what is a human, coupled with the fact that there might be the blurring of lines between artificial and human in time to come. So I think that there are implications that the Bible has, even from the creation account, but are there explicit directions on the kind of issues like artificial intelligence? I don’t think so.
It’s going to take people much younger than myself, who have grown up in the world of technology—they’re the ones that will need to have a biblical response.
But the reality is that the larger issue around artificial intelligence is not only “What’s a human, or what isn’t a human?” Or “What are the limits of artificial intelligence?” It’s about the issue of power. How is it used? Who is in charge of using it? Who says what can and can’t be done? So as with all things, the potential is for weaponisation. I think that that is going to be a challenge, and frankly, I’m hoping some people younger and smarter than myself will be able to navigate it.
There was a movie in the late 1960s called 2001, A Space Odyssey, which came out 56 years ago— it basically laid out what we’re facing today. It was about a computer and a spacecraft that took on human qualities and tried to control things. The issue is always about power. In this respect, the Bible is not silent. When we talk about the dignity of humanity and the specialness of creation, it’s humankind. I think that there are some principles there. But yes, it is a new frontier.
Another one of the issues that I do think there is more explicit information is the whole transgender issue. I heard a very interesting secular podcast done by some people from The New York Times—completely secular. They offered that the conversations occurring around advocacy for transgenderism is actually the same kind of assumptions that were held by 2nd century Gnostics.
I was shocked as I listened to this secular podcast talking about second century Gnosticism, which is what authors like the Apostle John faced. Essentially what it does is it allows a human being to remove themselves from the parameters of created order—you’re born male and female—and say, “I have the power to move away from created order and determine my own identity.” And that’s exactly what 2nd century Gnosticism was.
The issue, as it played out for John, in the First Epistle of John, is he basically says that he talks a lot about Jesus coming in the flesh—we’ve touched Him, we’ve put our finger in the nail scars. And why does he do that? Because the people who he is working with believe that Jesus was essentially an avatar, that He wasn’t a real person, and hence, really didn’t die and resurrect from the dead.
So they had, in a sense, disassociated Jesus from His identity as a human being, and said He wasn’t a human being. So what they did was they gave themselves the right to do that. This secular podcaster who was looking at transgenderism, obviously with a very critical view, said, “Look, this is nothing more than 2nd century Gnosticism.”
So I think artificial intelligence and transgenderism are two that I must admit give me great concern.
Are you concerned about the next generation and the generations to come? Will they have enough of that foundation to deal with these issues as they unfold?
That’s a great question. I’m fearful. Because they live in a day and age in a world with multiple voices. I used a little statement in my preaching over the weekend from a book called Flickering Pixels. It addresses the impact of too many sources of information, and you don’t know what to believe. Therefore, you’re susceptible to the loudest voice, the coolest voice. I’m afraid that that’s going to be a huge challenge going into the future.
I am fearful. Because as savvy as this young generation is on the use of technology and social media, I do view this generation as incredibly naïve. That’s why [Bible-based institutes like] the School of Theology is so critical, not only for people who are going into church, ministry, but just in the marketplace, knowing the Bible and knowing a little bit of history, etc. I think those are just the are bare minimums.
On that note, with all these different denominations and different schools of thoughts, we are basically all believers of Jesus. So is there a need for us to split hairs at grassroots level? Why is it important for the general congregation to know the difference between various denominational beliefs?
That’s a really good question. So, down at the grassroots, should everybody know the granular level of things? Most likely not, but it wouldn’t hurt to know.
More importantly, do leaders know the intricacies so that they can, in a sense, head off every wind of doctrine that comes along, like Paul says in Ephesians. I think leaders need to know those details.
I’ll just use the US as an example. Historically, communication capabilities of Evangelicals and Pentecostals, have been way better than what I’ll call mainline or liberal Christians. But mainline and liberal Christians are now increasingly couching their communication about themselves in using forms, words, themes that historically have only been for Pentecostalism and evangelicals. They are now sort of becoming more communication-savvy. And if you can read between the lines, that’s why leaders need to know this stuff.
As you know, City Harvest is in a season of strengthening our foundations in Pentecostalism. What would you say to our members that might not understand the need for us to have solid theological foundations at this level?
A person who says, “I don’t need this” is a person that’s actually treading on dangerous ground. Pastor Kong is not saying, “You need to know what I know. “ He’s trying to build a foundation under a very large congregation. God is doing extraordinary things here. It is important that Pastor Kong is not the only one with the programme. It’s important for the broad base of the congregation to be with him too. And I think that necessitates a much more sturdy understanding of critical issues.
The Bible says, in 2 Tim 2:15, to “be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” When we say “I don’t need to know all that”, we are demonstrating our naiveté towards the critical age we live in, and how many forces are actually trying to overtly and inadvertently “destroy” us. If your attitude is, “What’s the big deal here?”, I’d say you better wake up, because we are in a battle. Thank God that you have a leadership that takes this stuff really seriously. But only if you as the body take it seriously, we’ll be able to live into what I think God really wants to do through this congregation.
How would you advise believers when it comes to distinguishing academic Bible study from personal devotion. Is such a distinction even necessary?
As with any discipline, as you get into more complex themes that are part of that discipline, and you increasingly realise that you need multiple voices and you acquire an insight or language. The difference between academic Bible study and personal devotion is that as we read the Word of God, it can speak to us. We are not only try to understand it, but the Word of God is also trying to speak to us.
When you look at academic Bible study, you are increasingly using insight, language or arguments that are important, but not necessary for personal growth. For me, personal devotion is that I can sit down, and the Spirit of God can speak to me, even though I don’t understand that it in the original language. It can speak to me even though I am not an astute Bible scholar. So, the power of the Word of God is that it not only speaks to us, it, it frames our life, it speaks life to us. When we do academic study, we’re looking at Bible backgrounds, and how the first people who have understood this understood it as what theological battles are going on, all those things are very, very important.
David says the Word of God is a lamp unto our feet and a light into our path; the Word of God has the capacity to change our life, even if we can’t read it, and only can hear it. The academic side is very, very important, but the essence of our study of the Word of God is that it’s the lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. And that’s for everybody.
You’ve had many years of experience with different generations of believers in various contexts. How can we (as leaders, parents, elders) encourage our young people to continue fearing God and living a cruciform life that gives priority to the voice of God?
One of the things that we have to do with different generations is to constantly place in front of them the testimonies, stories and perspectives of people their own age, or a little bit older, who are closer to them in terms of context. So I’m very hesitant to say, “Now when I was a child, this is the way we did it; so you need to do it too.” I’m not willing to, and I don’t think we should do that. But I want to place in front of young people, examples and models to look up to, and information about issues that they may be facing. I may not be an expert on that but I can find sources for people who can speak to them. So it’s not so much what I can do personally, it’s about how I can orchestrate the necessary voices and resources that I think would impact the younger generation. And I think that a parent needs to be doing that. I think church leaders need to be offering parents those resources.
When you were last here you spoke on the tension between a believer’s professional work and family life. How would you encourage parents who are caught between the two?
I think the reality of two incomes per family are necessary to survive is an increasing reality in urban society, regardless of where you’re at. So in that kind of setting, I think it’s important that parents begin to weigh the price of attaining the next step. You’ve got to constantly ask, “Is this worth it?” If the advancement for father or mother means that they will be travelling two weeks out of the month, you’ve got to be willing to ask the question: “Certainly, this is good for my career, but is it good for my family?”, “Is this a necessary income?” I think we’re going to have to constantly ask the question, “What’s best for my family?” Sometimes it means sacrifice. Sometimes it means less is more.
This battle of balance happens every single day. It comes in very difficult times, where the advancement in a job means a really big increase in salary, which means we could do much with it. But there comes a point at which you also have to ask, “Yes, we can do all these things now, but it will keep us away from family time. Dad will be travelling more, Mom will be away from home, we will not be able to attend church or serve in the church. What does that mean for our future as well?”
Be honest about how the pressures of work and the challenges of advancement dominate over the priority of our family. Every family dynamic is different and balancing that is a constant challenge. It’s not going to go away. But the key is to say, “Am I willing to understand that my advancement and work comes at a price in my family?”
How would you distill “Pentecostal Foundations” into one sentence?
Pentecostal foundations include historic sources and biblical sources that help us better understand what it means to discern the present tense of Jesus’ continuing ministry in this world by the power of the Spirit.
What do you mean when you say “the present tense of Jesus”?
The guarantee of Pentecost is that the Jesus that we see recorded in the Gospels is doing exactly the same thing today as he did 2,100 years ago. And we know that because it’s authoritatively recorded in the Gospels.
So what energises Jesus’ ministry in the world today? The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit energises and empowers Jesus’ continuing ministry, just as the Holy Spirit empowered Jesus when He was on earth. So for me, I’m looking for the presence of Jesus. What is Jesus doing today? Well, He’s doing exactly the same thing He did 2,100 years ago: healing the sick, casting out demons, caring for the poor and needy. And we know that to be true, because we see it recorded in the Gospels, and it’s guaranteed by Pentecost, because the same power that empowers Jesus, empowers us.
So our job is to see where God is at work? Pentecost is so important it is the actual historical event that signals that Jesus is doing the same things he did 2,100 years ago; it is the continuation of His redemptive ministry, only now we become His body.
Jesus says in John 14:12, “… whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” Well, the greater things is not that we’re doing more stupendous things; it means greater in span, because now, His body is global, whereas He could only be in one place at a time on earth.
